ardashir ([info]eric_hinkle) wrote,
@ 2009-03-09 18:04:00
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Entry tags:d&d, drow, forgotten realms, gaming

Back to the ruined Realms!
Over on Haiku Jaguar's LJ (entry here: http://haikujaguar.livejournal.com/616052.html?view=10980212#t10980212) there's currently a thread going covering one of the more foolish changes made in what was once my favorite fantasy RPG setting, the Forgotten Realms. Basically, it's her wondering why the people at WoTC in a recent novel series made all the good drow (normally evil underground-dwelling elves with obsidian skin and white hair) turn from black to light brown in skin color, arguing that the "blackness of the drow's skin has become a permanent sign of their depravity" (that came from Wotsy, not Haiku).

Be warned, this one gets long. And ranty.

As to why, that seems to have been, simply, "to satisfy the people who complained that there weren't any positive images of dark-skinned people in the Realms". Never mind that the Realms had 'Africans' in the Chultans, a group so rarely used they could have done anything with them with no problems. Or that the Gold and Wood elves were dark-skinned. This was just one of a whole shopping list of complaints from various fans. So, someone at Wotsy had to try and satisfy people who already despised the setting by catering specifically to them.

The result was Lisa Smedman's series The Lady Penitent. In it, basically, the evil drow goddess Lolth plays a game of 'drow chess' against her renegade (and good) daughter Eilistraee. The game is for the drow as a race -- will they be doomed to evil, or will they retain a hope for redemption? Various other drow deities stick their noses in throughout the series and end up sorely regretting it when Lolth or Eilistraee sacrifice them like pawns. In the end, Eilistraee sends one of her worshippers, the high priestess Qilue Veladorn (a well-beloved character for many years in the stories and setting) to attack Lolth herself. And, well, Qilue suddenly loses about 200 IQ points, does all sort of incredibly stupid things, and dies while Eilistraee is 'riding' her.

So Qilue dies. All of her fellow priestesses die. Eilistraee dies, and seemingly her worshippers either go crazy or die (and the transformed good drow in the Underdark presumably get massacred by Lolth's faithful). And all save a handful of drow who don't have the Evil Gene (and who turned to a light brown while their relations with polluted blood got to stay black) became Offically Evil Forever and Beyond Redemption.

The way it was handled rankled -- to far too many fans it felt like Wotsy just spat in their collective face. Some were offended because of the Dumbing of Qilue and a boatload of other characters. Some were furious because a fan-favorite deity like Eilistraee got killed in such an offhanded way. And some got angry because, when they questioned this on the WoTC forums, they were banned for "hate speech".

The series itself was very badly done -- the writer, Lisa Smedman, normally a very fine author, was stuck with two jobs and given a very short period of time to do it in: (1) Prune the drow pantheon down to just Lolth (the evil goddess they've always had since 1st Ed), and (2) Remove some characters some of the fans were unhappy with, like Qilue Veladorn, one of the 'Chosen'.

She did about as good as she could under the circumstances, but the results, well... they were not well received by the older, pre-3rd Ed Realms fans. And by "not well received" I mean "made them go nuclear". Prior canon history from some of the Realms' more respected authors was completely ignored (including the guy who originally made the whole thing!). Literally decades of effort by various hard-working fans-turned-creators like Jeff Grubb and Elaine Cunningham was thrown out with nary an explanation.

Now, this might have been slowly accepted... save that at the same time, Wotsy was bringing out the World of Warcraft RPG D&D 4th Edition, and so they decided to 'improve' the Realms by removing all sorts of things that had long bothered a small and vocal group of fans who mostly didn't play the setting anyway.

Things like:

Removing the Chosen of Mystra, some of the best-developed and written characters in the entire setting. The complaint was that they were 'too powerful' and that 'they won't let the PCs in my campaign do anything!' Apparently the idea that you could just not use the characters or anything else you just didn't like was too difficult for some people to understand.

Changing the physical setting to make it more 'accessible and current for modern fans'. This seemed to translate as 'remove everything that doesn't look just like WoW or the latest generic fantasy series'. The whole High Medieval-Early Renaissance feel of the setting was thrown out. Developed cultures and cities were removed because "no one cares about them". Needless to say, this angered those fans who did care about them, many of whom have now turned their back on Wotsy and 4th Ed (I know this for a fact, as I happen to be one of those disgruntled fans).

The Realmsian pantheon was turned completely on its head. Now, this could have worked, save that it in many cases the changes were described as "It was always like this, you just never knew the truth before." Often the change was done in such a way that made utterly no sense whatsoever to anyone who'd picked up any of the 3rd Ed setting books. The rather copndescending way this was done angered yet more fans... many of whom left the Realms and Wotsy.

And that's the best I can do right now, Haiku. Sorry for the length, but it really was a big whopping mess.




(73 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]varjohaltia
2009-03-09 11:58 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for the good summary!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]eric_hinkle
2009-03-10 03:12 pm UTC (link)
Glad you like it!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]darkelf105
2009-03-10 12:20 am UTC (link)
Here via [info]haikujaguar's post. Thanks for this! Erm, I haven't waded into the Realms since the last of the War of the Spider Queen books was released...I'm kinda relieved that I haven't. The Chosen are gone? But, but, but, but.....and the drow...and oh, why? Is Elminster gone? I guess I'll just re-read my 3rd ed books and remember the world fondly, because I don't think I like this new version of the FR very much.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]eric_hinkle
2009-03-10 03:13 pm UTC (link)
Elminster isn't gone, he's just not-Chosen any more since Mystra died and was replaced by Asmodeus (yes, the Lord of Hell is now ruler of Realmsian magic). You can read more on what happened to old El in my response to [info]cutelildrow below.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]darkelf105, 2009-03-10 05:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eric_hinkle, 2009-03-10 10:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]brigidsblest, 2009-03-10 10:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eric_hinkle, 2009-03-10 10:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]brigidsblest, 2009-03-10 10:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]archangelbeth, 2009-03-11 04:37 pm UTC

[info]ruggels
2009-03-10 01:44 am UTC (link)
Realms? that's for the wannabe's and late comers, Back in My Day we had "Greyhawk" and "City State of The Invinceable Emperor" and we LIKED it! Harrumph Kids and their silly Paperbacks, Back int he day we had to write our own NPC's and background!!!

Scott

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]eric_hinkle
2009-03-10 02:54 pm UTC (link)
I remember Greyhawk, and that got off pretty lightly in 4th Ed... but only because Wotsy seems to have forgotten that it exists. Of course, that might be for the best.

And I remember when the D&D books were more like pamphlets. I think I used to have Eldritch Wizardry for several years, as well as a copy of Chainmail.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]zilvar
2009-03-10 05:06 pm UTC (link)
Gord the Rogue?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]eric_hinkle, 2009-03-10 05:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]zilvar, 2009-03-10 05:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eric_hinkle, 2009-03-10 05:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]zilvar, 2009-03-10 07:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eric_hinkle, 2009-03-10 10:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]zilvar, 2009-03-10 11:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eric_hinkle, 2009-03-11 04:24 pm UTC

[info]kathryn_aka_kat
2009-03-10 01:49 am UTC (link)
Gah. I've never been a fan of the "good drow" as a PC or common literary character (they ought to be damn rare, and Drizz't clones are usually poorly played anyway), but this is major nonsense, and the lightening of the "good drow" skin tone is the most blatant racism ever. Why can't they see that? *sigh* I'm sticking with 3.5e, thankyouverymuch.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]eric_hinkle
2009-03-10 03:11 pm UTC (link)
the lightening of the "good drow" skin tone is the most blatant racism ever.

And yet they did it to appease people who were complaining that the Realms were racist. You're not the only person to find the cure worse than the disease in these circumstances.

I've never been a fan of the "good drow" as a PC or common literary character

I could stand neutral drow, or even evil drow who weren't homicidal psychopaths. Evil doesn't have to mean 'Jason Voorhees with magic'.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]zilvar
2009-03-10 05:09 pm UTC (link)
I'm sticking with 3.5e, thankyouverymuch.
This is a reasonable decision, but if you're basing it off the hijinks and bad decisions made in one setting, it's being made for a bad (imo) reason. The setting doesn't define the system in 4e any more than they did in 3.x.

I can understand why people wouldn't care for 4e, but that kind of comment just seems very irrational.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]eric_hinkle, 2009-03-10 05:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]zilvar, 2009-03-10 05:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eric_hinkle, 2009-03-10 05:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]zilvar, 2009-03-10 07:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kathryn_aka_kat, 2009-03-10 05:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eric_hinkle, 2009-03-10 05:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]zilvar, 2009-03-10 07:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]varjohaltia, 2009-03-10 11:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]zilvar, 2009-03-10 11:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]varjohaltia, 2009-03-11 12:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]zilvar, 2009-03-11 01:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]stryck, 2009-03-10 11:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]zilvar, 2009-03-11 12:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kathryn_aka_kat, 2009-03-11 01:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]zilvar, 2009-03-11 02:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kathryn_aka_kat, 2009-03-11 02:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]zilvar, 2009-03-11 11:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]gyzki, 2009-03-11 03:20 pm UTC

[info]lady_ravenlocke
2009-03-10 03:36 am UTC (link)
Here from HaikuJaguar's post. This...now, let me preface this by saying I've never been a big Forgotten Realms fan, nor have I ever been a paper gamer. Still, I have a low tolerance for shoddy storytelling, or stupid sh*t in general, and this really does sound like it falls in both categories.

And by "not well received" I mean "made them go nuclear".

I love this, by the way. It made me laugh.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]eric_hinkle
2009-03-10 02:56 pm UTC (link)
This...now, let me preface this by saying I've never been a big Forgotten Realms fan, nor have I ever been a paper gamer. Still, I have a low tolerance for shoddy storytelling, or stupid sh*t in general, and this really does sound like it falls in both categories.

It gets better when you consider that the people who criticized this move on the Wotsy forums (some of them admittedly in vicious fashion) were banned for engaging in "hate speech". I never knew that corporate entities and bad writing were protected by anti-hate speech laws, did you? :P

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]lady_ravenlocke, 2009-03-11 05:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]eric_hinkle, 2009-03-11 04:26 pm UTC

[info]stokerbramwell
2009-03-10 03:57 am UTC (link)
If there's one thing that the Rath Cycle, the Weatherlight Saga, and Urza's story taught me from my big Magic: The Gathering fanboy days, it's that Wizards of the Coast knows nothing about writing.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]eric_hinkle
2009-03-10 03:14 pm UTC (link)
It gets even more insulting when you consider the way the WoTC crew was responding to questions and criticism. Very much a "Well, we're running this company, so what we want goes, and scr*w you if you don't like it."

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]stokerbramwell, 2009-03-11 03:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]eric_hinkle, 2009-03-11 04:27 pm UTC

[info]cutelildrow
2009-03-10 05:11 am UTC (link)
here via Haiku's post... and... and.... *is gaping at the screen trying to restrain herself from screaming in pure unadulterated OUTRAGE.*

ELMINISTER IS GONE?! THE CHOSEN OF MYSTRA?! The Seven Sisters?!

But ELMINISTER WAS ICONIC OF FR, the way Raistlin Majere was of Dragonlance!!!! And the drow... the way that the kender were of KRYNN.

DESTROY MY CHILDHOOD! *RAGE* They already went and utterly RUINED Krynn, and this is what they do next? RETCON DAMNIT RETCON!

I'm going to ignore 4th ed FR. People keep telling me that it's good, but it's just NO EFFING NO.

And don't get me started with what WoTC did with L5R!!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]ruggels
2009-03-10 05:47 am UTC (link)
Oh the rules are probably Okay, but then I am an old Hero System grognard, and am used to puling th emechanics out from the backgroudn and rolling my own. Good rules don't NEED plot.

Scott

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]cutelildrow, 2009-03-10 11:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]eric_hinkle, 2009-03-10 03:06 pm UTC

[info]stryck
2009-03-10 11:22 am UTC (link)
L5R has been returned to its d10 roots! The new edition (3rd revised) looks good.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]eric_hinkle, 2009-03-10 03:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]headnoises, 2009-03-10 04:56 pm UTC

[info]headnoises
2009-03-10 06:55 am UTC (link)
Wow.

My husband's D&D collection was stolen a bit back-- no cash for it ATM, but it's on to of our "when the money comes in" list.

Guess what company we won't be replacing the books with?

This is just...pathetic.

At least the Drizzt books and the other paperbacks I've got give enough details that we don't technically need the source books......

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]eric_hinkle
2009-03-10 03:08 pm UTC (link)
My husband's D&D collection was stolen a bit back-- no cash for it ATM, but it's on to of our "when the money comes in" list.

Ugh. I lost most of my 2nd Ed books myself (the Realms, Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Spelljammer...), so I can appreciate how you must feel. My condolences.

Guess what company we won't be replacing the books with?

There is a LOT of 2nd and 3rd ed material to be found at http://www.paizo.com as PDFs at very reasonable prices ($5-10$). Failing that you can find more out of print D&D material at http://www.nobleknight.com, though he sells the paper books and they can get pricy.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Well done!
[info]ysabetwordsmith
2009-03-10 03:59 pm UTC (link)
Solution: ignore new books. Buy old books and play that version. Once you've got a version you like, freesh, you don't need the company to keep making more stuff.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Well done!
[info]eric_hinkle
2009-03-10 04:50 pm UTC (link)
Okay, but it's still annoying to see something that you enjoyed for years get ruined so casually. All the more so when they did it against the desires of the man who (supposedly) owns the setting... and many of his mistakes they 'corrected' were caused by the company demanding that he do them in the first place!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Well done! - [info]ysabetwordsmith, 2009-03-11 06:00 am UTC
Re: Well done! - [info]eric_hinkle, 2009-03-11 04:28 pm UTC

[info]brigidsblest
2009-03-10 10:11 pm UTC (link)
...I'm so glad I've had nothing to do with D&D--fiction or game products--since 3.0. Reading this book would make me cry.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]eric_hinkle
2009-03-10 10:35 pm UTC (link)
Off topic, but I love that userpic!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]brigidsblest, 2009-03-10 10:44 pm UTC

[info]silussa
2009-03-10 11:10 pm UTC (link)
So, I wasn't aware Lloth was in our reality, nor that she had purchased WOTC.

Nothing else makes sense.

(Reply to this)


[info]archangelbeth
2009-03-11 04:44 pm UTC (link)
Poor author. O:(

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]eric_hinkle
2009-03-12 10:27 pm UTC (link)
At least the fans are being supportive of her (assuming you're talking about Lisa Smedman), rather than going into a frothing fury.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]valkyreace
2009-03-11 07:14 pm UTC (link)
I've been all but through with WOTC (or WizKids, or Hasbro, take your pick of which company to blame) for some time. The reasons are as follows:

They hosed Star Wars completely. They barely put out d20 First Edition and then decided to change it, then change it again, all without doing the level of publicity needed for the Star Wars RPG to become more popular or re-editing existing books to conform to the latest changes. The way they handled Force powers was originally interesting to read, but when you realized they were treated more like magical spells from D&D d20 (take your pick of which edition, you only got to use it once unless you memorized it multiple times or spent Force points)...No more.

And now I hear of the absolute butchering of one of D&D's most beloved settings and disastrous handling of several characters. As an author, I feel bad for Lisa Smedman and her apparent difficult situation. Especially when dealing with a story setting that is controled not by fans but a condescending and weak-willed corporation.

Is it any wonder I stopped buying D&D books (more books come out for that game than all others combined) a long time ago? Is it any wonder why I've been developing my own ideas for a game system? Is it any wonder why my brothers and I, even though D&D was the medium to create our characters, want to break with any association with D&D in our Fantasy RPG World? We have our own version of lighter-skinned Dark Elves, but there is a legitimate and well explained reason for them!

Gary Gygax is spinning in his grave, may he haunt those who ruined his vision.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]eric_hinkle
2009-03-12 10:26 pm UTC (link)
They hosed Star Wars completely. They barely put out d20 First Edition and then decided to change it, then change it again, all without doing the level of publicity needed for the Star Wars RPG to become more popular or re-editing existing books to conform to the latest changes.

I saw that myself, and man did it make things confusing (not to mention frustrating, when they never re-did the 'Dark Side' sourcebook in later editions). And now I think they've got a third version out?

And now I hear of the absolute butchering of one of D&D's most beloved settings and disastrous handling of several characters. As an author, I feel bad for Lisa Smedman and her apparent difficult situation.

Poor Miss Smedman is virtually in hiding, though thankfully no one in the fandom is angry at her.

It does say something that the first two books of the series came out within just a few months of each other... and the third took over a year. I guess she was just that displeased herself with everything that she had to write.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]natalief
2009-03-12 11:33 pm UTC (link)
Interesting. I miss playing in FR (2nd edition) and these days play WoW online. I bought the 3rd ED WoW D&D book and they have removed too much form the MMORPG for my liking. I am loth to even bother looking at the 4th ED version. Thank you for this info.

Then again, I still miss playing the deep gnomes (Svirfneblin) from 1st ED as a PC *shows age*...

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]eric_hinkle
2009-03-13 02:46 pm UTC (link)
Don't feel too bad, I can actually remember when elf and dwarf were the names of classes.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]dark_blade
2009-03-23 10:08 pm UTC (link)
They WHAT?

*twitch*

Ghf. Damnit, I was sitting here repeatedly going WHAT?! when I read Haikujaguar's post, and this... ghf. Makes me glad I've not invested in 4E. I started gaming on 2nd Ed AD&D, and for the most part loved 3/3.5. A few things didn't work fantastically, but that's what house rules are for.

(Reply to this)


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